Sunday, June 5, 2011

June 5, 2011, Bob Brinker's Moneytalk: Summary, Commentary and Excerpts

 Posted June 5, 2011........................................................[Post or read comments]

Bob Brinker hosted Moneytalk today.  Two weeks ago, when Brinker was last on  the air, he was hyping  Andrew Ross Sorkin's book, "Too Big to Fail" and the HBO movie, "Too Big to Fail,"  which aired on May 23rd.  Surprisingly, Brinker did not mention the movie on the program today.

Honey EC: I for one, was very disappointed that Brinker did not say what he thought about the movie after having hyped it for several weeks. I saw the movie and so have several others. Most of us think that it was very well done and educational -- with a great cast. Wonder if there was something in it that Brinker did not approve of -- like the fact that it clearly showed that every effort was made to save Lehman Brothers, but that  it was simply not possible.

Brinker's comments summarized, paraphrased or excerpted: 

STOCK MARKET....No "Ground Hog Day" today.....Brinker made no mention of the stock market and did not recite the closing numbers.   Stocks have  been down every week  for the last five weeks.  The Dow  was down 2.3% for the week;  S&P 500 Index was down 2.3%;  Nasdaq down 2.2%.   The Dow has had its longest weekly decline since 2004 and the S&P has had the biggest 5 week decline since 2002.

Honey EC: ==> As of the  June 4, 2011, Marketimer,  Brinker's model portfolios continue to be  fully invested and he still  recommends dollar-cost-averaging new money into the market.  Brinker forecasts  "...new recovery highs in the S&P 500 Index 1400s range as part of the ongoing cyclical bull market trend." 

MAY UNEMPLOYMENT REPORT.... Brinker said  that private payroll rose by 83,000,  and government jobs continued to shrink, losing 29,000.  Net non-farm payroll was 52,000.  The national unemployment rate is 9.1%.
Brinker recited unemployment by racial  demographics: White = 8.0%;  Black = 16.2%;  Hispanic = 11.9%;  Asian = 7.0%;  Teens 16-19 years = 24.2%.  

Brinker recited unemployment educational demographics: College graduate = 4.5%; some college = 8.0%; high school = 9.5%; less than high school = 14.7%.
 BLAME COMMODITY FUTURES MODERNIZATION ACT OF 2000 FOR LOSS OF 8 MILLION JOBS... Brinker said:  "I think if you had to put something at the top of the list of the culprits that brought about the loss of 8 millions jobs, back there in 2008-2009 when the economy went into free fall, you would have to put it at the top of your list.  Because this diabolical legislation, and we all know we have the best government money can buy, and that's why Washington policians vote on these ridiculous policies that they come up with. Policies like doing away with Glass Steagall legislation at the end of 1999, a bi-partisan effort, of course. And so was the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000. ......Bill Clinton....the Maestro.....the former Fed Chair. This was the act that deregulating derivatives....and credit default swaps.....I contend both parties are messing up the country...In effect the Federal government created legalized gambling on Wall Street in the form of derivatives and credit default swaps....

There was no meaningful reserve established for the paying for the credit default swap  insurance contracts.....When the credit markets collapsed, which happened instantly when Lehman went under in mid-September of '08......The inevitable happened, the government had to step into the black hole which was called AIG, and provide the money.  Otherwise the counter-party risk spreading across the financial system would have taken it down......It cost the taxpayers over 100,000 billion dollars to bail out AIG.....AIG was deemed to big to fail because it had its insurance tentacles all over the globe....

So even though in March of -08, the Federal Reserve had stepped in with its 29 billion dollar de facto backstop of the J.P. Morgan takeover.....agreed to take over Bear Stearns which was under extreme duress.....on the terms that were agreed upon, which were that Bear Stearns first billion dollars in losses would be eaten by J.P. Morgan....a lead pipe cinch....call it the cost of the takeover. But the next 29 billion was backstopped by the Federal Reserve.....Then we got to September and Lehman Brothers was unable to put together anything and they were gone in mid-September of 2008....

And almost immediately the AIG, within hours, problem became front and center.....Then people realized, whoa.....look at these Lehman books, there are almost no reserves... All this money has to be paid out as all these companies go belly up. And AIG did not have the money. And taxpayers had to step up.....And in the process, they made firms like Goldman Sachs whole at a 100 cents on the dollar, believe it or not.....So what we had here is casino capitalism. I'm all for capitalism, not for casino capitalism on Wall Street, no way....Of course, Wall Street lobbied for this legislation, they paid for it.....And as  happened with the Glass Steagall situation, it was a bi-partisan effort to change the law.

But they really had to push on this deal. They had to go the extra mile to push the states from regulating the derivatives and the credit default swaps.They had to grant immunity from the state gambling laws. With an almost unbelievable foundation for what was to follow within not that many years later, and I think it's a big piece of the puzzle."  

Honey EC: Here is a June 3, 2011 Bloomberg article that says "Lehman May Never Face Court Reckoning as SEC Enforcers Lean Toward Rebuke."  

Also from Bloomberg, what are they preparing for?   Volcker Named to Panel That Will Advise on Too-Big-to-Fail   "Former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker and former Citigroup Inc. (C) co-chairman John Reed have been named to a Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. panel that will help the agency map strategy for unwinding too-big-to-fail financial firms when they collapse."

WILL THE GOVERNMENT MAKE BUDGET  CUTS OR KEEP PRINTING MONEY....  Brinker commented that he is waiting to see some  evidence of  Washington  getting serious about balancing expenditures with revenues -- at least within 3% of Gross Domestic Product  instead of the  9 and 10% that there is  right now.  It's  a real national disgrace.  There's been lots of demagoguery, but  no serious efforts.  
Brinker said:  "If they don't get serious about moving toward a balanced budget, in the long term, then we do run the risk that they could print their way out.....They would inflate their way out. And the way you print your way out of a major debt problem is you let inflation run high and that reduces the real cost of what you have to repay because you are paying it back in inflated dollars. And obviously, that also reduces the value of everybody's money in terms of what you can buy.....It's a 100% chance they are going to print more money because they have to accommodate Gross Domestic Product expansion. If they don't, the economy will go into a nose-dive.....The question is, will they do it responsibly and I think the jury is out."
HOW TO BUY GOLD....Caller John from St. Louis said he is  worried  about the dollar possibly losing much  of its value,  and that he had contacted a gold dealer because he is  thinking of  moving half of his model portfolio III holdings into gold coins.  Now the gold coin dealer is pressuring him to buy.    Brinker  responded by quoting from "Mack the Knife,"   Bobby Darin's old  song:   "When the shark bites with his teeth dear, scarlet billows start to spread."    Brinker told John that  he had warned against buying numismatic coins many times on the program.   Because of the mark ups, coins  may be worth half what is paid for them.  Brinker recommends GLD for those who want to own gold for a hedge.

GOVERNMENT COULD INTERFERE WITH GOLD AND SILVER MARKET....Caller Jack from San Diego said buyers should beware when it comes to buying gold and silver because the government could interfere  as they have done in the past  and that could dramatically change values.   For example, the margin requirements were changed on silver future contracts  recently and silver collapsed about 30% in a week.  Jack also  pointed out that since the  Federal Reserve alone decides when to print money,  they will make  the decision whether or not to print our way out of this debt problem.    He also said pointed out  that the Federal Reserve makes profits.  Brinker commented that the Fed has  to turn all  profits over to the US Treasury every year and  then  he ended the call.

SHOULD INVESTORS WORRY ABOUT MONEY MARKET FUNDS....Caller Ron asked Brinker if one should worry about money funds. Brinker replied that he thinks one should "worry about everything" and that only a fool doesn't worry.  He then explained that  money market funds are short-term portfolios of Treasuries, commercial paper and bank deposits.  It's   always  best to deal with quality companies -- such as Schwab or Fidelity. 

WHOLE LIFE INSURANCE POLICY.....Caller Ted from San Jose said that his in-laws invested in whole life insurance policies to save for his two kids college educations. He  asked Brinker what he thought of that method of investing. Brinker responded that it was not a method he would recommend "even for his worst enemy,"  however,  it would make a life insurance salesman really happy.  He recommended paying an hourly fee to a Certified Public Accountant to find out how to shut it down.

BI-PARTISAN EFFORT TO SELL U.S. DOWN THE RIVER...Caller Andy from Redwood City said he agreed with Brinker's monologue about the Commodity Futures Modernization Act.  Brinker said:  "I know I'm correct.....This is what drives me nuts, so many people out there are missing the point I made earlier. This is a bi-partisan effort to sell the United States down the river. It's not one party or the other. It's both of them." 

Andy continued: "They are both against us. Phil Graham,  Robert Rubin, Bill Clinton  and Alan Greenspan did us in."  Brinker replied: "There you go, you have two Democrats and two Republicans right there." 

OIL AND GASOLINE PRICES....Brinker said:  "I'm completely opposed to any manipulation whatsoever in the commodities market..... I get upset when oil goes to $115 a barrel, as it did a few weeks ago and people yell manipulation. But then it goes back down to $100 a barrel, where it is now and nobody says they manipulated the price down. It has to be a two-way street....Let me say this.....it has been amazing to see oil come off its speculative $115 very recent high and come back down to $100 and see pump prices go down so little." 

WHO (OR WHAT)  COULD GET HIT WITH NEW TAXES?   Caller Mark in Carson City wanted to know if the internet was getting a free ride on taxes and  then asked about taxes on stock transactions.   After pointing out that the internet had been around since Al Gore invented it,  Brinker said:  "I don't think that the financial markets would celebrate any new tax on transactions.....But everything is at risk. We are running annual deficits of 1 1/2 trillion. I can't believe I just said that.....Mind boggling numbers. That's how the national debt get over 14 trillion so quickly.....There's such a massive gap between expenditures and revenues that nothing would surprise me. It would not surprise me to see tax on high-earners, if you see on transactions on Wall Street, if somebody decides to tax internet activity because the level of dysfunctionality in Washington has never been this high."  

BIGGEST POLITICAL NEWS FOR THE MONTH OF JUNE....Brinker said: "The big news for  the month of June, this is laughable, is that President Obama and Speaker Boehner are going to play golf on June 18th. I mean they must be laughing at us all over the world right now. Who cares whether they play golf? How about getting the green eye shade down and getting to work? It's comical." 

Brinker's third-hour guest-speaker was Michael Hirsh,  "Capital Offense: How Washington's Wise Men Turned America's Future Over to Wall Street"

Moneytalk on demand  with Bob Brinker, is available for FREE audio/podcasting at KGO810 radio for seven days after broadcast. I download and save all three hours, including the third hour guest-speaker. (The program is archived in the 1-4pm time-slots.)    Bob Brinker also offers it by paid subscription at  bobbrinker.com  -   free for seven day archives at   KGO Radio Sunday Archives  

SteveT did a photographic study of "the Bench." Here is one  of his great shots:



113 comments:

jeffchristie said...

First Brinker claimed the big culprit was the repeal of the Glass Stegal act. Now he says that the commodity modernization act of 2000 was another big cause of losing 8,000,000 jobs. I guess I am too simple minded. The real estate bubble would have burst even if these two laws hadn't passed. Andrew Ross Sorkin said that sub prime loans should be called bad mortgages that people would probably be unable to repay. As many people defaulted on their mortgages, those homes went on the market at fire sale prices. This brought down the market value of all homes. New home construction came to a screeching halt. This reverberated to all of the industries that supply the housing market. Things like air conditioner, kitchen appliances, plumbing fixtures, lumber, roofing, windows etc. The meltdown on Wall Street made the problem worse but I see the main problem being the collapse of the housing market and that would have happened even without the two laws being passed.

birdbrain said...

Mr B went to great lengths yesterday describing in detail the economic free fall of 2008-09, blaming derivatives and credit default swaps established with no reserve intact. Nice history lesson, but was he not aware of the warnings from market participants about the danger of the unchecked growth of the CDS market? During which time he remained bullish on stocks, calling for multiple lump sum buys just ahead of a 40%+ drop in SPY?

Silly me. I'm under the assumption that when folks pay for financial advice they should expect proactive planning, not a summation of what has happened with a tacit admission of "Golly gee, nobody saw this coming."

Some did.

Anonymous said...

Frankj:

No one single item, but a combination: repeal of portions of Glass Steagall by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, prompted by Citi's acquisition of Travelers. (A bank acquiring an insurance company).

The Commodities Futures Modernization Act deregulated over the counter derivatives.

The Community Reinvestment Act was passed in 1977 but "strengthened" over the years to encourage more banks to loan to low-income people.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

All these things played a part in creating the bubble.

I'll have to listen to the first hour and 20 minutes of the show -- our local station couldn't get the show on, so we got the Dennis Miller show, instead. Hey, I'm not complaining, Miller is one funny guy.

Honeybee said...

Jeffchristie,

It seems to me that Bob Brinker works hard to avoid appearing partisan. He constantly hammers on his "both parties are responsible" mantra.

In order for him to put the blame where we all know it belongs, he would have to talk about the Federal Government ordering that loans be made to people who couldn't afford to repay them.

As I recall, this began during the Clinton administration. Although, Bush certainly did nothing to stop it.

If those so-called "liar loans" had never happened, the whole house of cards would not have tumbled down because there would have been no "subprime" loans to package for credit default swaps.

As for Fannie and Freddie, that lays totally at the feet of people like Maxine Waters, Meeks and Barney Frank. They were warned, but either lied or were ignorant beyond belief.

HERE IS PROOF:

Democrats Fighting Regulation of Freddie and Fannie

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Honeybee said...

Hi Birdbrain,

So glad you found the new blog!

You are, as usual, quite correct about Bob Brinker. He has a wonderful rear-view mirror.

Yesterday, Brinker talked about what was happening in mid-September 2008. Since that was almost three years ago, and (in my opinion) most of his subscribers have turned over, what he was actually saying back then is covered up (except for this blog).

Here are his Marketimer buy signals for September 2008:

* Sept 2, 2008 @ 1282: Low-to-mid 1200's

* September 16th -- rescinded low-to-mid 1200's (recommends dollar cost-average only)


And this is what he said on Moneytalk, November 8-9, 2008:

Bob Brinker said: ".......But I have not yet reached a point right now where I have been willing to upgrade the recommendation on the stock market right now from dollar-cost-average to buy. I do anticipate as we move forward that there will be an opportunity to upgrade the stock market recommendation, which is currently for new money -- we are talking new money -- as you have, which is currently dollar-cost-average, I do expect there's going to be an opportunity to upgrade that to buy a recommendation. But until those conditions fall into place, I would remain on a dollar-cost-average approach........"

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Honeybee said...

And we should recall that now he talks about the 2008 meltdown as though he knew all about it.

If he did, why did he continue to have his subscribers fully invested?

Why did he continue to tell listeners and subscribers to keep ALL stock market money fully invested by dollar-cost-averaging?

Why did he repeatedly throughout 2008 issue ever-lower all-in buy signals until September when he removed the last one and said to dollar-cost-average?

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Anonymous said...

Frankj:

The State of Ohio sued Fannie Mae in 2004 over losses to their pension funds. The case drags on. Letter to Editor in today's WSJ.

Anonymous said...

Personally I think we have seen the apex of the middle class and upper middle class in terms of presence/material goods.trappings of wealth.

Over the last 20 years expectations of what normal is, veered strongly off course. I'll give you an idea. When I grew up, where I live now was considered a destination. It was were people wanted to be, an area of modest homes (mostly cape cods) and some sprawling ranch styles. This is where the doctors, lawyers, dentists and executives lived. Now the same homes would not be considerd fit to kennel the upper middle clsses dogs at.

There now is a McMansion area with a golf course, country club that firemen, school teachers, and police officers live in along with middle class dual income workers.

The doctors, lawyers, dentists and executives that use to live in my area 50 years ago now live in exclusive, gated communities.

Generally the only people in my area are very old, wealthy folks still living in the cape cod or what once were destination homes are now considered starter homes.

Today's family look at 2 or 3 bedroom homes with one bath as beneath contempt. Expectations seem to have become altered, what is normal or middle class seems to have shifted upward.

My point in all this is, what you saw in the real estate bubble was a lifestyle bubble bought on credit and an assumption of ever increasing salaries and the ability to gain new educational credential that would automatically lead to increased pay. The reality as we are seeing is very different.

In the end I think we saw a convergence of factors leading to this economic slowdown.

Unfortunately, as I said in my opening paragraph I truly think we have seen the apex; which is a sad legacy for out children and grand children. But I think that the correct frame of reference is not so much that we have seen the eclipse of the middle and upper middle class but rather the reality is too many folks were living beyond their means.

tfb

Honeybee said...

Frank J said: "All these things played a part in creating the bubble.


I agree that the total collapse was facilitated by all of the ingredients that you itemized.

Probably if even one of them would not have been put in place, it would not have been as devastating as it was.

Yes, I think you would enjoy hearing Bob Brinker's opening monologue. I transcribed a lot of it, but it's always better to hear his expressions.

Too bad there isn't a way that I could post audio clips of some of his best rants. :)

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Honeybee said...

FrankJ,

Here is a link about Ohio suing Fannie Mae. Comments by the Ohio AG:

Ohio Is Right to Seek Fraud Redress From Fannie Mae

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Honeybee said...

Wow...TFB....lots to think about in your post. Thank you....

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Honeybee said...

Smile, an old friend from the Suite101 days and excellent financial analyst, wrote the following outstanding commentary. He wrote in response to the Laksmann Achuthan, Bill Gross interview regarding jobs and the economy.

(Smile and I have never agreed on politics, but I respect his views.)

I will post Smile's comments in three sections and then his links at the end.


Smile wrote:

"the elephant in the room is speculators and their role in playing the risk on trade... free market yes but no to advantaging margin requirements for the specs. stocks require at least 50%. Specs have been able to bet the ranch using only pennies to enter the trade - look what happened to silver as the CFTC contemplated position limits and actually raised margin requirements.

A couple weeks or so back I noticed my online broker increased margin requirements on some of the 2x commodity etfs - of course republicans are again on the wrong side of this argument - thank goodness for Sanders and Obama calling these clowns out.

Financial Regulation

so how does this concept of speculation, margin requirements and position limits tie in to the market and impact US. The tie in is the Fed - to keep it short its the Bernanke put, too big to fail, Quantitative easing etc. - listen to Cramer's rant back in '07 b4 the market tanked about Greenspan teaser rates, fed policy etc - the fed was asleep, now they are way over in my view what their purpose should be if this is truly a free market - which it aint - savers are being ripped off by fed policy to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars a yr. because of the fed's too easy policy - Ron Paul is beginning to make a lot more sense - we need to wake up - get informed and then act on this stuff...

last point I will make is - what is the point of a debt ceiling if you keep raising it???? 8) .... now for Dr. Cramer's rant heard round the world - olde but goodie:

Cramer: Bernanke, Wake Up

Continued next post:

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Honeybee said...

Smile's comments continued:

"obviously I got a little off tangent, the point I am trying to make about speculation and the Fed's QE is 1) there are unintended consequences to QE 2) specs drove commodities higher which impacted GDP and helped engineer the recent slowdown in the economy 3) you can impact the specs by properly imposing rational margin requirements and position limits 4) the Fed needs to begin the process of normalizing interest rates - and let the free market take its course."

Continued next post:

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Honeybee said...

Smile's comments continued:

"my final point: 5) politicians on both sides of the aisle are worth spit until they begin telling the truth to the American people in plain English - the plain English is our debt is out of control - caused by two wars not paid for, Medicare Part D not paid for, and electing a likable guy in GW Bush who met up with the Peter Principle... Benefits will have to be cut but it should be done in a manner which will not pull the rug from those who are too close to retirement - as the Ryan plan does, means test out the multimillionaires from the safety net programs; also re: the latest unemployment report - those who wanted a smaller gov't and spending cuts should be pleased it showed a drop in Gov't workers by 29,000 with private sector jobs up around 83,000 which is not gang busters but ain't minced meat either. We need to put together a sensible plan which puts into place meaningful cuts to the budget not over 10 yrs but over 5, mindful of what happens to jobs & GDP when the gov't stops spending... start with my solution here or come up with a better plan: To see how well you do try this little US budget solving problem:"

NY Times Budget Puzzle

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Honeybee said...

Smile posted those on my Facebook page and gave me permission to post them here. He also had some nice words to say about this blog. As usual, he makes me smile. :)

Here is the link to my Facebook page if you want to "friend" me too, that would be great.

Honey Oakes

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birdbrain said...

"The Fed is about to end its $600 billion program to keep interest rates low by buying federal bonds. Bernanke's remarks were an acknowledgment that there isn't much more the Fed can or will do in the near future."

No further intervention from the Fed, a clueless White House, and a Congress unwilling to make the tough choices to reign in deficit spending.

My fellow Americans, you are on your own.

Honeybee said...

Birdbrain said: "No further intervention from the Fed, a clueless White House, and a Congress unwilling to make the tough choices to reign in deficit spending.

My fellow Americans, you are on your own."


Well said, Birdbrain.

So what happens next? Will the stock and bond markets both crash?

Bob Brinker is "sorta" prepared on the bond side because he has sold all of TIPS from Marketimer portfolio III (balanced) and from his off-the-books, income portfolio (formerly known as "fixed-income portfolio).

He also lowered his Vanguard Ginnie Mae Fund (VFIIX) holdings in those two funds.

Model portfolio III is only 20% Ginnie Mae now that he has added Vanguard Wellesley Income Fund (VWINX) to both of those portfolios.

Last month, Brinker added a new bond fund to the income portfolio: DoubleLine Total Return Fund (DLTNX).

So when you take a step back and look at Brinker's Income Portfolio, and consider that it's 25% Vanguard High-Yield Corporate (VWEHX) and 25% STOCK-CONTAINING Wellesley Fund and the arguably risky DoubleLine Fund, it looks like it is now a fairly risky portfolio.

No problem for Brinker if it takes a hit. He doesn't include it in his "official performance record" -- and neither does Mark Hulbert.

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jeffchristie said...

Honeybee said...
Smile's comments continued:

"my final point: 5) politicians on both sides of the aisle are worth spit until they begin telling the truth to the American people in plain English - the plain English is our debt is out of control - caused by two wars not paid for, Medicare Part D not paid for, and electing a likable guy in GW Bush.....

That reminds me of Erik a caller to Moneytalk in the last hour Sunday. He started by saying: "Look I have some good ideas. Obama is crook like Bush and Paulson. They should be behind bars like Madeoff". Now that is not my position but I can see why Erik feels that way.

Sure we had a lot of problems when Bush left office but the American People voted for someone to make things better. You are right about two wars not being paid for but at least congress was consulted and approved. Now we are in a third war without congressional approval. Gasoline was around $1,80 a gallon. Today the national average is around $3.75. Cumulative deficits since January 2009 total around 4 trillion dollars. Unemployment was 7.4% the last full month Bush was in office and now it is 9.1%. We certainly have gotten change but I don't think this is what the voters had in mind.

Honeybee said...

Jim Rogers, on CNBC with Maria Bartiromo, says the dollar will collapse - says the government should cut spending and cut taxes.

Rogers is short technology and some financials.

He says if gold and silver correct some more, BUY MORE.

He says Bernanke "has never been right on anything."

He says QE2 will be back, possibly under a new name, because the Fed will continue printing money.

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Honeybee said...

Well, in addition to being down for five weeks in a row, the stock market has been down six days in a row.

Of course, it still fits into Bob Brinker's buy-and-hold mentality of "noise"...

Is he wrong again like he was when he was bullish in 2008, the worst bear market of a lifetime?

Has the market turned bearish or is this just a "health-giving correction?"

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Honeybee said...

The Fed has been warned:

NEW YORK (Reuters) – A default would have severe reverberations in global markets, a top Federal Reserve official said just hours after Fitch Ratings warned it could slash credit ratings if the government misses bond payments.

St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank President James Bullard told Reuters on Wednesday "the U.S. fiscal situation, if not handled correctly, could turn into a global macro shock.

"The idea that the U.S. could threaten to default is a dangerous one," he said in an interview.

"The reverberations in those global markets would be very severe. That's where the real risk comes in," Bullard warned.

Some Republican lawmakers have said a brief default, which would be inevitable in August if lawmakers fail to raise the nation's $14.3 trillion debt ceiling, might be acceptable if it forces the White House to deal with large budget deficits.

Read more if you dare:

Fed: Default would be dangerous

And:

Thursday Look Ahead: Markets Have Weekly Angst Over Weekly Claims

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smile_1 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
smile_1 said...

jeffchristie said...

Sure we had a lot of problems when Bush left office but the American People voted for someone to make things better. You are right about two wars not being paid for but at least congress was consulted and approved. Now we are in a third war without congressional approval. Gasoline was around $1,80 a gallon. Today the national average is around $3.75. Cumulative deficits since January 2009 total around 4 trillion dollars. Unemployment was 7.4% the last full month Bush was in office and now it is 9.1%. We certainly have gotten change but I don't think this is what the voters had in mind.

===

It is difficult to determine how bad the Armageddon trade would have been without the steps taken by the Obama administration including the 872B stimulus 1/3 of which was tax cuts. It is ironic that nearly a third of the stimulus was tax cuts something Repubs are for - but when Obama does it - it turns into a cost.

The Facts:

When Lehman was taken out in Sept. 2008, this began the Armageddon trade. 6 months later the market bottomed @ S&P 666.79 3/6/09 with a final test probe on 3/9/09 .

If you look at chart 2 graphic at this link Unemployment Graphic you will see all of the damage was done before any of Obama's policies took place. Fiscal stimulus was passed in Feb 2009 and you know it took at least a month or so for any money to flow.

Along the way the Obama administration fought and successfully convinced Congress to do the right thing & save our US auto industry without which we would be down another million or so jobs.

To blame Obama for the mess Bush left is like blaming Leonardo DiCaprio for the Titanic sinking - it just doesn't compute. Bush left 1+ trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye could see.

Honeybee said...

Bill Gross on Treasurys and QE2 ending.... Excerpts:

"Much like gradually turning up the temperature on poor froggy’s kettle of water, monetary policy in developed countries has been lowering the temperature and absolute level of yields for the past 2½ years post Lehman Brothers. Teeter-totter yields down, teeter-totter prices up, and froggy’s total return euphoria at present seems to know no bounds. But once the potential for even lower interest rates is minimized by the zero floor, our future frog-legged entrée is left with a rather uncomfortable feeling. He’s resting inertly in this caldron as prices near the boiling point with the Fed, the Chinese and the banks all buying up whatever Treasury bonds are offered. Everything appears well. But bond investors with a survival instinct (being one and the same as our cooking frog) should reflect on that old teeter-totter metaphor and realize that prices near the boiling point automatically imply yields near subzero. Granted, 5-year Treasury rates near 1.70% are not zero and 10s and 30s are even better, but much of the Treasury yield curve now rests in negative territory when compared with expected future inflation, and that should send our bond investor into a hoppin’ funk. Prices are already nearing the boiling point and his coupons are subzero, CPI adjusted. Total return…and our frog…are cooked, or if not they are certainly trapped in a future low return kettle of water.

Recent press coverage has focused on the end of QEII and what it may or may not do to Treasury prices. Let me reaffirm what we’ve said for many months now. Because the QEs cover an extraordinary period of monetary policy with a limited time frame, there is not enough data to indicate whether the end of QEII will lead to higher or even lower rates, although higher is our strong preference. “Who will buy them?” remains a critical question to be answered. There is, however, overwhelming evidence – now provided by Carmen Reinhart among others – that existing Treasury yields fail to adequately compensate investors for the risk of holding them when measured on an historical basis.

We suggest buying “cheap bonds” focusing on “safe spread,” which means buying more floating and fewer fixed rate notes, adding an additional credit component – be it investment grade, high yield, non-agency mortgage or emerging market related – and shading your portfolio in the direction of non-dollar emerging market currencies. Investors shouldn’t give their money away, and at the moment, the duration component of a bond portfolio comes close to doing just that – not because a bear market is just around the corner come July 1, but because it doesn’t yield enough relative to inflation. Come on frogs, make butter, not someone else’s dinner. Buy cheap bonds!


William H. Gross
Managing Director

Read more of this outstanding article at Bill Gross/Pimco

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jeffchristie said...

Smile

I would like to go back to square one and see if we can agree on what government actions brought about the loss of 8 millions jobs, back there in 2008-2009. Bob Brinker has stated many time that the repeal of the Glass Stegall was one of the major problems. He has ask ever third hour guest who had a book based on the melt down and they agreed.

Last Sunday he said the Commodity Futures Modernization Act was also a big part of the problem. Brinker said:
"I think if you had to put something at the top of the list of the culprits that brought about the loss of 8 millions jobs, back there in 2008-2009 when the economy went into free fall, you would have to put it at the top of your list. Because this diabolical legislation, and we all know we have the best government money can buy, and that's why Washington politicians vote on these ridiculous policies that they come up with. Policies like doing away with Glass Steagall legislation......... And so was the Commodity Futures Modernization Act .......This was the act that deregulating derivatives....and credit default swaps.....I contend both parties are messing up the country...In effect the Federal government created legalized gambling on Wall Street in the form of derivatives and credit default swaps....

Do you agree with Brinker or is there some other government policy that you blame?

smile_1 said...

jeffchristie, I agree basically with the culprits you mentioned, but 2 points:

1) I would lessen the overly broad context in getting back to square 1 and narrow it to enlighten as to how the two culprits in your post came to being by looking at how this legislation passed thru Congress - which brings us to Phil Gramm's (R) role; and

2) there are other issues (culprits) which I will bring in which got us to our current end point of unemployment and staggering debt which impacts growth which circles back to GDP growth, demand and ultimately employment.

Point 1 briefly 8) : read this David Corn article about Phil Gramm's role in pushing through deregulation - Phil Gramm (Republican) greased skids to Armageddon trade

To quote a couple of sections from Corn's writeup:

"Gramm's long been a handmaiden to Big Finance. And in 1999, Gramm pushed through a historic banking deregulation bill that decimated Depression-era firewalls between commercial banks, investment banks, insurance companies, and securities firms—setting off a wave of merger mania.

But Gramm's most cunning coup on behalf of his friends in the financial services industry—friends who gave him millions over his 24-year congressional career—came on December 15, 2000. It was the perfect moment for a wily senator to game the system. As Congress and the White House were hurriedly hammering out a $384-billion omnibus spending bill, Gramm slipped in a 262-page measure called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act. Written with the help of financial industry lobbyists and cosponsored by Senator Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), the chairman of the agriculture committee, the measure had been considered dead—even by Gramm. In essence, Wall Street's biggest players (which, thanks to Gramm's earlier banking deregulation efforts, now incorporated everything from your checking account to your pension fund) ran a secret casino. "Tens of trillions of dollars of transactions were done in the dark," Banks and hedge funds, "were betting the subprimes would pay off and they would not need the capital to support their bets." These unregulated swaps have been at "the heart of the subprime meltdown," says Greenberger."

So yes I lay all this at the feet of Phil Gramm and the Republicans in the Congress who pushed for the firewall break of Glass Stegal & the Commodity Futures Modernization Act.

====

Point 2: other Culprits

The Fed under Alan Greenspan as Cramer's Rant recounts kept interest rates too low for too long - "teaser rates" then raised interest rates 17 or 18 times to reign in the specs which caused the buckling of those teaser rates and eventual defaults - then Bernanke took over not understanding the depth of the swaps and CDO risk did not react quickly enough to lower rates to prevent defaults and collapse or unwinding of the bets made on CDOs and unregulated Swaps.

If you will recall - ECRI's Laksmann Achuthan in 2008 early on was warning that it was not too late to act to avert a recession. Cramer in 2007 was already calling for the Fed to cut "open the darn fed window - cut the rates".

I already discussed Bush's role - tax cuts to the wealthy who did not need them, two wars not paid for (1 of which in Iraq was unnecessary and based on a lie) Medicare Part D not paid for - add all of Bush's errors up and you get to 1 trillion deficits waiting for Obama as the Swap/CDO mess unwound.

Were there other culprits, yes but the above was at the heart of what occurred.

So again I think my best line in my previous post was - "To blame Obama for the mess Bush left is like blaming Leonardo DiCaprio for the Titanic sinking - it just doesn't compute. Bush left 1+ trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye could see." Was he solely responsible - no but he gets a big slice of the blame along with his buddy Phil Gramm and the Fed.

Anonymous said...

"I already discussed Bush's role - tax cuts to the wealthy who did not need them, two wars not paid for (1 of which in Iraq was unnecessary and based on a lie) Medicare Part D not paid for - add all of Bush's errors up and you get to 1 trillion deficits waiting for Obama as the Swap/CDO mess unwound."

Nobody can deny that!

smile_1 said...

1 final point I will make is back in 2007 the mistake many made was to underestimate the impact of default of approx. 1 trillion subprime & Alt-A mortgages against a 13 to 14 trillion dollar mortgage market - what many did not understand is the 30:1 leverage bets the financial industry was making in the dark of deregulation on cdo's and swaps. Without this unregulated market issue, the market would not have collapsed.

If 50% of subprime collapsed, this was only 500B/13T = 3.85% which is not chump change but not enough to cause the Armageddon trade which ensued due to the huge bets taken out on cdo's and swaps which were in the trillions.

jeffchristie said...

smile_1 said...
jeffchristie, I agree basically with the culprits you mentioned, but 2 points:

So yes I lay all this at the feet of Phil Gramm and the Republicans in the Congress who pushed for the firewall break of Glass Stegal & the Commodity Futures Modernization Act.

OK Phil Gramm sponsored the bill but Bill Clinton signed it into law. Please tell me if you don't think he should be held equally accountable for it.

"I already discussed Bush's role - tax cuts to the wealthy who did not need them,"

Please explain why Obama extended the Bush tax cuts for two years. All he had to do was let them expire and we would have reverted back to the same rates everyone paid in the last year of the Clinton administration.

"two wars not paid for (1 of which in Iraq was unnecessary and based on a lie)"

A lie? Both the CIA and British intelligence were claiming Iraq had WMDS. Sound like faulty intelligence to me. Sorry but I don't buy your conspiracy theory.

"Medicare Part D not paid for"

Agreed. Another well intended liberal social program that congress didn't pay for. I would have voted with the democrats on this one.


" - add all of Bush's errors up and you get to 1 trillion deficits waiting for Obama as the Swap/CDO mess unwound."

I agree with you that Obama can't do anything to address the deficit problem. I have problems with Ryan's plan to fix things and wish Obama had an alternative I could evaluate and consider. Given the fact he had virtually no executive experience, I am not surprised that he hasn't proposed a solution. I certainly didn't have the high hopes that most of the people who voted for him had so at least I am not disappointed. As to McCain, I feel
he would have been equally as ineffective.

jeffchristie said...

smile_1 said...
1 final point I will make is back in 2007 the mistake many made was to underestimate the impact of default of approx. 1 trillion subprime & Alt-A mortgages against a 13 to 14 trillion dollar mortgage market -

I agree with you that these subprime mortgages were a big part of the problem.
In the film clip Honey posted Andrew Ross Sorkin explained it. He said when he first had subprime mortgages explained to him he thought they should have been called lousy mortgages that probably would never be repaid. Both the Clinton and Bush administration encourage people to buy homes. I have heard that buying a bigger home than the purchaser could afford was a big part of the default problem.

Anonymous said...

Frankj --

Gramm Leach Bliley passed by a wide margin: The Senate vote was 90 in favor, 8 opposed, 2 not voting. The 90 in favor included 52 Repubs and 38 Dems. The 8 opposed included 1 Repub and 7 Dems.

In the House, the vote was 362 in favor, 57 opposed, 15 not voting.

The NO votes were: 5 Repubs, 51 Dems, and 1 Independent.

The Commodities Futures Modernization Act 2000, is more difficult to parse out. I won't try to say what the Yea and Nay votes were because it was adopted as part of a much larger appropriations bill and it does not appear there was a direct vote on the bill in its final form. Read about it by finding it on Wikipedia.

My guess is, few read it, fewer understood it, and NO ONE knew they were letting a destructive genie out of the bottle.

It might be convenient and satifying to blame a president for this or that. Congress should get the blame for more things, in my opinion. This commodities legislation should have come up for a vote on its own and not been tucked into a much larger bill, I think. But what's done is done.

smile_1 said...

jeffchristie,

two part post:

Part I.

I think your argument started at placing the blame for the current gas price, unemployment and the deficit/debt problem on Obama where you stated:

"Gasoline was around $1,80 a gallon. Today the national average is around $3.75. Cumulative deficits since January 2009 total around 4 trillion dollars. Unemployment was 7.4% the last full month Bush was in office and now it is 9.1%. We certainly have gotten change but I don't think this is what the voters had in mind."

I think this post by "Anonymous" addresses your initial argument quite effectively:

"Anonymous said...

"I already discussed Bush's role - tax cuts to the wealthy who did not need them, two wars not paid for (1 of which in Iraq was unnecessary and based on a lie) Medicare Part D not paid for - add all of Bush's errors up and you get to 1 trillion deficits waiting for Obama as the Swap/CDO mess unwound."

Nobody can deny that!

June 9, 2011 10:42 AM"

smile_1 said...

jeffchristie,

Part II

Your last post ended with:

"I agree with you that Obama can't do anything to address the deficit problem. I have problems with Ryan's plan to fix things and wish Obama had an alternative I could evaluate and consider. Given the fact he had virtually no executive experience, I am not surprised that he hasn't proposed a solution. I certainly didn't have the high hopes that most of the people who voted for him had so at least I am not disappointed. As to McCain, I feel
he would have been equally as ineffective."

1st I did not say Obama could do nothing to address the deficit issue, as Anonymous pointed out and I still like the Titanic line. I think it is his job to address this issue and I now believe that both sides will be forced to a compromise solution. I noted on my fb status Tom Coburn (R - OK) - will be coming up with 9+ Trillion in useless government spending also Obama has a good platform (alternative) as he fought thru republican opposition to establish the Simpson Boles committee which came up with the very compromise we are likely to get - a rationale end point in addressing the debt. The point I am making is a default by the US would be catastrophic - everyone with an ounce of common sense knows this - this looming pre-crisis will be put to good use and both sides will compromise tax revenue will be raised (top 2% bush tax cuts out) and big cuts to useless spending will be achieved. The market is confirming by so far no deep 20%+ selloff.

As far as your comment re: Obama's executive experience - it is in my opinion a Republican talking point and has been shown to be quite ridiculous. Did Obama show his executive ability when he made it a top priority of his Administration to kill OBL. Gates said of Obama - gutsiest call I have ever seen by anyone. Bush had 7 years to accomplish the same task Obama got done in two and fractional months. Stuxnet is another victory for the Obama Administration not to mention the stepped up drone strikes which have taken out so many al-Q leaders. I'm really surprised anyone with objective eyes would even question either his intellect, his executive decision making abilities, or his love for this country. Anyone who underestimates President Obama does so at their peril. McCain/Palin learned it the hard way. OBL learned it the dead way. Iran reactors spinning out of control learned it the cyber death spin way.

smile_1 said...

One final point about the Bush WMD lie and you can chose to close your eyes to Bush's own words in Woodward's Book Plan of Attack - here is the link to the transcript of the Russert Interview back in '04: transcript of the Woodward Russert Interview

see 12/21/02 CIA meeting Bush's words: `Nice try,' Bush said. `I don't think this is quite - it's not something that Joe Public would understand or would gain a lot of confidence from.' Card was also underwhelmed. The presentation was a flop. ... Bush turned to Tenet. `I've been told all this intelligence about having WMD and this is the best we've got?'

----

Less than three months later, the president stood before the nation and said this:

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.

MR. RUSSERT: What happened in those 90 days that changed the president's mind?

MR. WOODWARD: He should have followed his instinct. When it didn't smell right, when he said, "Hey, now wait a minute, that's the best you've got?" he should have said, "Time out. Let's stop everything." Because what Tenet was saying was merely a reaffirmation of what the CIA had said in all of its formal reports on weapons of mass destruction. He should have called in the experts--Bob Gates, who was the CIA director for his father--and said, "Look at this. Go back to square one. What have we got, because it doesn't look right." And, of course, they did not do that, and now we have not found any weapons of mass destruction.

The point is made by Woodward - Bush should have followed his instinct on the WMD data.

So much for the theory of executive experience - eh - intelligence, and great problem solving skills trump this every time.

Jeff - I'm not trying to convince you that my position is correct - the facts presented do that - what you choose to believe is your choice. The facts are undeniable from my perspective and apparently from that of "Annonymous"

8)

smile_1 said...

oops need to correct something jeff posted,

jeffchristie said...

"smile_1 said...
1 final point I will make is back in 2007 the mistake many made was to underestimate the impact of default of approx. 1 trillion subprime & Alt-A mortgages against a 13 to 14 trillion dollar mortgage market -

I agree with you that these subprime mortgages were a big part of the problem.
In the film clip Honey posted Andrew Ross Sorkin explained it. He said when he first had subprime mortgages explained to him he thought they should have been called lousy mortgages that probably would never be repaid. Both the Clinton and Bush administration encourage people to buy homes. I have heard that buying a bigger home than the purchaser could afford was a big part of the default problem.

June 9, 2011 11:48 AM


=====

what you agreed with was not my point my point was the subprime mess even if 50% went bad was less than 3.85% not enough to crater the market - what cratered the market was the trillions in swap bets caused by Foreclosure Phil's CMA legislation he snuck in to an Omnibus spending bill.

as I stated:

"If 50% of subprime collapsed, this was only 500B/13T = 3.85% which is not chump change but not enough to cause the Armageddon trade which ensued due to the huge bets taken out on cdo's and swaps which were in the trillions.

June 9, 2011 11:02 AM"

Honeybee said...

Jeff,

I checked the link that I previously posted to the 19 minute "Too Big to Fail" video and found that it isn't working. So here it is again.

This is great friends. If you have seen the movie, read the book, neither or both, or if you are trying to decide if you're interested, this is a great video:

HBO Films: Too Big to Fail

.

Honeybee said...

Whew....this is worrisome:

NEW YORK (Reuters) – Bill Gross, the manager of the world's largest bond fund, bulked up his stake in non-U.S. debt in May and persisted in his resistance toward Treasuries despite their rally on a torrent of weak economic data.

According to PIMCO's website on Thursday, Gross' $234 billion Total Return Fund (PTTRX.O) held 10 percent in non-U.S. developed bonds as of the end of May 31, up from just 6 percent as of the end of April.

(SNIP)

When an investor "shorts" a swap, he agrees to pay a fixed rate in exchange for a floating rate, which is just the reverse. To put it simply, he is selling a bond betting that yields will rise.

Gross told Reuters in early May that the only way he would purchase Treasuries in a big way again is if the United States heads into another recession.


Read more: PIMCO's Gross goes long non-U.S. debt, shorts swaps

.

Anonymous said...

All this sniping about George Bush is ridiculous. Up until Obama he was the President who did the most to advance the Democrats ideas in modern times. Just look at his record. He was liberal, but now he is being compared to a super-liberal.

You liberals ought to bow down and kiss Bush's feet, he managed to advance your agenda while putting the onus of blame on Republicans.

It is beyondme while you lib types pick on him so much given all he did for you.

tfb

Jim said...

I have a prediction to make. I predict Bob Brinker will not talk about the stock market this weekend. He also will not brag about the gains made YTD.

Honeybee said...

Well, the bad news this morning is that the Nasdaq is negative for 2011.

.

Pig said...

This might be a good book to read on the crisis. It's supposed to be simple and direct.

According to Rush and [Walter Russell Mead] well-known Democrat has reviewed the book. He says that the Republican Party and the Tea Party have just acquired a new weapon of mass destruction (it has nothing to do with Weiner), and that if the deploy the weapon effectively in the next election cycle -- and Mead says it's a big if -- then they've got the biggest opportunity to move the country rightward since Ronald Reagan took the oath of office in 1981. And it is this book, that this book answers the question average Americans have: "Why is what's happening to me happening? Why is my home worthless? Why don't I have a job? Why can't I get a loan? Why is this economy such a mess?"

The American people know somebody really screwed up, but they don't know who. This book provides the answer and in names. One of the big names mentioned is a guy named James Johnson, a huge Democrat Party power broker, facilitator, fundraiser. Barney Frank's name is mentioned. ACORN. La Raza. The Democrat establishment with unbreakable ties to Wall Street. Angelo Mozilo. This book apparently makes it plain that this economic disaster is a pure creation of the Democrat Party and crony capitalist associates on Wall Street. Not the Republican Party. Pure and simple, the Democrat Party. Despite the fact that the lead author is one of the business writers for the New York Times, Gretchen Morgenson.

Reclesss Endangerment

Honeybee said...

What's going on with Bank of America and JP Morgan? Perhaps one of them is the bank that Jim Rogers said he is short???

From Seeking Alpha:

"Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan Chase (JPM) challenged Bernanke after his speech Wednesday stating "Has anyone bothered to study the cumulative effect of all these [regulations]" - that it could be the reason it's taking so long for credit and jobs to come back? Bernanke essentially says no: "It's just too complicated. We don't have quantitative tools to do that... There is going to be some trade-off here." Dimon went on to say that “on top of all this the banks are about to be hit with higher capital requirements and approximately 300 new rules.” Dimon seemed frustrated. This does not bode well for the future prospects of bank stocks. Moreover, Bank of America’s chart looks disastrous. Bank of America shares are in a definite downtrend with no positive catalyst on the horizon. I don’t see Bank of America bottoming here, there is more pain coming. The bank has a large amount of distressed loans still on the books. See chart provided by CNBC below."

Why It's Time to Sell Bank of America and Buy Silver Stocks

.

Honeybee said...

TFB,

While I did not like many things that President Bush did, I will always believe that he is an honest man who did what he thought was best for our country.

I recommend his book: "Decision Points."

.

Honeybee said...

Hi Jim,

So glad you found me....I was sure hoping you would. Your take on Bob Brinker is positively prescient. :)

.

Honeybee said...

Thank you Mr. Pig. That looks like a good book.

Wonder why Bob Brinker has never mentioned it or had the author as a guest-speaker?

Here's a link to Amazon.com for the book:

Reckless Endangerment: How Outsized Greed and Corruption Led to Economic Armageddon

.

Anonymous said...

Frankj:

I have heard the book advertised on the radio over the past few days and thought the same thing, wondering if she will be interviewed by BB.

Although I have complained here about the steady stream of "what went wrong" books, I guess I could tolerate one more.

Anonymous said...

I will always believe that he is an honest man who did what he thought was best for our country.

I do not disagree. I have a couple or relatives and several acquaintances that are friends of his (though I have never met him) and they speak highly of him as a person. Given they are very devout in their faith and measure people by it I trust their judgment.

I never voted for him because he was too liberal and I believe his faith was in conflict with his oath of office, which to me explains the choices he continually made.

This is precisely why I would not vote for Huckabee, the whims of his faith guides his actions not his principles. Where as with Bush, I think his principles were a manifestation of his faith, but the end result is the same problem, someone who will not faithfully execute the duties of their office due to religious convictions(you can make the same argument for Obama only substitute socialist for religious).

All the best,

tfb

Honeybee said...

Earlier on this discussion forum, I mentioned that Bob Brinker is "sorta" prepared for a decline in the bond market.

I would like to qualify that by saying that he is only prepared on the GOVERNMENT side of the bond market.

However, his (fixed) income portfolio now has 25% Vanguard High Yield Fund (VWEHX) and 20% DoubleLine Total Return Bond (DLTNX), which holds some lower-grade bonds.

But it can't hurt Brinker because he keeps this portfolio off-the-books. So does Hulbert. Hulbert likes to help the Brinker's any way he can.

Also in light of the fact that Brinker recommends his Model portfolio III for retirees it's way out there on the risko-meter.

Brinker's model portfolio III now contains a 20% weighting in Vanguard Wellesley Income Fund (VWINX) in place of Vanguard Inflation Protected Securities (VIPSX) and a lowered holding in Vanguard Short Term Investment Grade Fund (VFSTX).

Wellesley is about 35-40% stocks.

Junk bonds are undergoing a pullback, probably because of fear of a double-dip recession.

I sold all my JNK on April 27th at $40.73 (with a nice NAV profit) and put about half the proceeds into additional NLY.

But JNK is sure starting to look inviting again -- if it wasn't for those pesky unemployment, economic and housing reports. :)

.

Honeybee said...

Here's a Wall Street Journal briefing on the junk bond market:

As Junk Bonds Fall, Some Blame the Fed

PS: if the whole article doesn't open, just Google the title, it will take you to the WSJ online link.
.

jeffchristie said...

Smile said

"As far as your comment re: Obama's executive experience - it is in my opinion a Republican talking point and has been shown to be quite ridiculous."

My comment had nothing to do with the Republican party. I have no more use for McCain than I do for Obama. I was stating a simple fact. Prior to becoming POTUS Barrack Obama had no executive experience whatever. What job did he ever hold that you consider managerial?

He made a good decision to launch the raid. The Intel he had was no better than what Bush had prior to going into Iraq. Here are some quotes from Robert Gates:

"I had real reservations about the intelligence. My worry was the level of uncertainty about whether bin Laden was even in the compound."
SOURCE: The Nation

"I was very concerned, frankly"
SOURCE: The Nation

I support what Obama has done militarily. My only criticism is he took too long to approve the troop build up in Afghanistan. I also support his action in Libya but probably for a different reason than he did. I support his decision to keep Guantanamo open. In fact when it comes to military policy decisions I don't see any difference between him a Bush. Do you?

Here is a problem I see as a result of his lack of executive experience. The actuaries have determined that Medicare has a funding problem in a few years. He is required by law to come up with a proposal to fix this. All I have seen him do is attack Paul Ryan's plan while proposing nothing himself. Obama's budget submitted to congress showed no leadership to reduce spending.

smile_1 said...

jeffchristie,

I liked Bush as a person but he was weak in a lot of ways. I'm not trying to be snarky but the big difference between Obama and Bush is competence in the decision area. Bush being the incompetent and Obama being the competent one. I do give Bush credit for making the tough call on the surge in Iraq - the problem is we never should have been in Iraq - they had nothing to do with 911 - and out of his own mouth he knew the evidence on WMD was insufficient, sketchy and in Bush's words "it's not something that Joe Public would understand or would gain a lot of confidence from". Congress never would have given authority to war Iraq without the WMD scare - you think Bush did not know this?

The non sequitur in your executive experience argument is two fold:

1) the accomplishments Obama has put up on the boards to date trump the executive experience concern - executives make decisions and forward look to where others cannot - check and double check for Obama in the decision and forward look categories.

2) the medicare issue of unfunded liabilities has been out there for decades thru at least 4 presidents each of whom have had some executive experience but they did not solve squat for this known medicare issue - which is why I think executive experience counts for nothing as the leader of the free world - if you listen to these guys post Administration you will hear a recurrent theme - nothing prepares you for the job of US President - you use the skills you bring to the table, intelligence, inquisitiveness, tenacity, internal fortitude, etc.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this executive experience thing - Obama is getting it done. He has a lot of points on the scoreboard and will probably go down in history as one of our greatest US Presidents, despite the kooky loons on the far right who despise the man.

If you have a free moment take a look at this:

I.O.U.S.A.

it is an honest look at the problems ahead of us.

Anonymous said...

"...the problem is we never should have been in Iraq - they had nothing to do with 911 - and out of his own mouth he knew the evidence on WMD was insufficient, sketchy and in Bush's words "it's not something that Joe Public would understand or would gain a lot of confidence from". Congress never would have given authority to war Iraq without the WMD scare - you think Bush did not know this?..."

No denying that either. How many times did we see Bush on TV trying his darnedest to absolutely link Saddam/Iraq to 9/11?

Unfortunately it worked and a large portion of Americans to this day still believe that Iraq was responsible for the 9/11 attack.

IMO, Bush was lying through his teeth as was Cheney et al.

smile_1 said...

I.O.U.S.A. short 30 minute version

I like this shorter version better.

the other hyperlink I referenced is 43 minutes long but it may be more up to date.

Honeybee said...

anonymous,

Please identify yourself or your posts will be deleted.

By identify, I mean create an ID and sign your posts with them.

Thank you.....

jeffchristie said...

Smile said:

"Bush had 7 years to accomplish the same task Obama got done in two and fractional months."

Good point. Obama is like Harry Truman. FDR spent years trying to defeat the axis to no avail. Truman got into office the A-bomb became operational. He made the courageous decision to drop it and he war was over. I suspect you may think what I just said is ridiculous. Well I feel the same way about your statement. Without the 7 years of intel collected by the CIA, I am not convinced we could have got him.

" Stuxnet is another victory for the Obama Administration not to mention the stepped up drone strikes which have taken out so many al-Q leaders. I'm really surprised anyone with objective eyes would even question either his intellect, his executive decision making abilities, or his love for this country. Anyone who underestimates President Obama does so at their peril."

Stuxnet was a victory, but I thought Bush approved the program towards the
end of his administration. Another example of Obama supporting a Bush policy on the war on terror. I have never met anyone with objective eyes. We all have our own value systems and strongly disagree with those with opposing values. I don't question his intellect but I do question his love of this country as it existed prior to the day he took office. Remember he said he was going to fundamentally change America. It scared me then and it still does today.

I am not even sure he believes in American exceptionalism. I don't underestimate President Obama. If anything is at peril it is the American way of life as I have known it. I don't remember him telling the voters what he was going to change America to. Based on what I have seen so far it looks like he is moving towards a socialist state like Sweden. If that is the direction you wish to take this country, I can see why you would think Obama is a great president. He ranks right up there with FDR.

Honeybee said...

Well friends,

I think Sunday will be another Bob Brinker Stock market Groundhog Day -- meaning that all he will do if he even mentions the stock market is recite the closing numbers. LOL!

The averages have been down for six weeks now (about 7%).

The Nasdaq is in negative territory for the year. The Dow is still up 3.2% YTD and the S&P 500 Index is up 1.1%.

It would be nice if Brinker would actually discuss the stock market when it is going down, but to my recollection, he has NEVER done that when he was fully invested.

.

jeffchristie said...

Smile

You don't approve of Bush going into Iraq because you say they didn't have anything to do with 911. I understand your position. Now explain to me why you approve of Obama using military action in Libya. I am not aware of them being involved in 911 either.

I approve of Obama's action and would probably even go even further than he has but I suspect I have a different reason for US involvement.

smile_1 said...

jeffchristie,

we certainly give Bush credit for mindlessly approving a program which he did not come up with, given his track record on the OBL kill, maybe stuxnet under Bush would have been ready by 2020 haha. It was Obama who ordered this stuxnet program to be sped up - you know the same priority he ordered for the kill of OBL - you remember OBL - the same person Bush said he did not spend a lot of time thinking about... after Bush blew the kill at Tora Bora.

Did you notice how silent Cheney, Rummy et al Repubs got after Panetta disclosed in a private letter to McCain that enhanced interrogation techniques under Bush did not lead to OBL in fact the exact opposite - lots of false leads. Not a peep out of Cheney since.

:)

smile_1 said...

re: American exceptionalism - Obama is the embodiment of that concept. Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law and President of Harvard Law Review etc... what was McCain 5th from the bottom of his class at the NA, and Bush C at best student Yale but hear he gave a mean Cheer

jeffchristie said...

smile_1 said...

re: American exceptionalism - Obama is the embodiment of that concept. Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law and President of Harvard Law Review etc... what was McCain 5th from the bottom of his class at the NA, and Bush C at best student Yale but hear he gave a mean Cheer

McCain's class standing reminds me of a old joke. What do you call someone who finished last in his class in medical school? The answer is doctor. But seriously that is the least problem I have with McCain. General Hugh Shelton former chairman of the joint chiefs has said that he is mentally unbalanced and he is glad that he is not commander and chief. He spoke highly of both Bush and Clinton.

I think Obama is probably a great lawyer but I don't think he has ever attended an economics class and doesn't have a clue on how to turn this economy around. IMHO Obama is the democratic equivalent of Richard Nixon. Intelligent, calculating, keeps his friends close and his enemies closer.

As for Bush he is the only US president to have earned a degree from Harvard and Yale. He has an MBA from Harvard. He also know what it is like to run a business.

Anonymous said...

re: American exceptionalism - Obama is the embodiment of that concept.

LOFL!!! Have you ever met Obama? I have, he is NOTHING - period, end of story. He is average intelligence at best and frankly having spoken to him on several occasions I can tell you he is not able to actively engage in a fluid conversation. Franky I fond him dim-witted and uninteresting.

Contrast Obama with Alan Keyes who is highly intelligent, devastatingly fluid in a debate and one of the most interesting human beings I ever had the good fortune to meet.

Or contrast Obama to Bill Clinton who is naturally engaging, very intelligent and able to engage in an active conversation.

Obama is s significant step down from either of the afore mentioned.

You people need to get over the myth of Obama's intellect. A much closer reality is he is just a punk who road the affirmative action express all the way to the White House.

tfb

jeffchristie said...

Smile said:

"Maybe stuxnet under Bush would have been ready by 2020 haha."

Let me see if I understand this, stuxnet is a software development project. I worked in that business most of my adult life in various capacities including project manager. No software project gets approved without a target date. You seem to think that date was 2020 under Bush. I have worked on some big projects. One was the management information system for the F15 fighter. This was about a two year effort. A software project that would take over 10 years is ludicrous. I don't contest that someone in the administration sped up the development. There are limits to what can be done. Adding additional people may help to some extent. So does extending the work week. A great many of us work Saturdays on the F15 project but we had a rule that you could only do that for three weeks in a row because it was felt that doing it all the time would lead to fatigue and be counter productive. When management ask to speed things up my boss would say that it takes nine months for a woman to have a baby. You can't get nine women and do it in one month. Your dislike for president Bush may be clouding your judgment.

jeffchristie said...

TFB

Can you believe how stupid the leadership of the democratic party is acting on this Weiner scandal? Pelosi ordered an investigation. That is the last thing they should want. More and more problems surface every day. Now it looks like there was an under age girl involved. As leader of the party Obama should tell his chief of staff to call Weiner and ask him to resign for the good of the party. There are more important things to do like read Sahara Palin's Emails. Maybe they can find something to get her to resign. Oh I forgot she doesn't hold any office and is not running for one. It seems to me that they are making complete fools out of themselves. I wonder if Brinker will talk about any of this on Sunday?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

jeff christie is a partisan... (edited by Honey).

jeffchristie said...

Smile said:

"Did you notice how silent Cheney, Rummy et al Repubs got after Panetta disclosed in a private letter to McCain that enhanced interrogation techniques under Bush did not lead to OBL in fact the exact opposite - lots of false leads."

A private letter you say. How would you have access to that. If what you are saying is true Panetta lied to the American people when he was interviewed by Brian Williams. I do not to believe that to be the case. I have always felt that Leon Panetta is an honest, honorably and decent man like George W Bush. Here is what he said in the interview as reported by MSNBC a network I consider bias.

News
CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid
NBC, msnbc.com and news services
WASHINGTON — Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques included waterboarding, he acknowledged.



http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42880435/ns/today-today_news/t/cia-chief-waterboarding-aided-bin-laden-raid/

Honeybee said...

Jeffchristie,

Here is your link:

CIA chief: Waterboarding added bin lade raid

.

Honeybee said...

TFB said:

"LOFL!!! Have you ever met Obama? I have, he is NOTHING - period, end of story. He is average intelligence at best and frankly having spoken to him on several occasions I can tell you he is not able to actively engage in a fluid conversation. Franky I fond him dim-witted and uninteresting."


TFB,

Thank you for sharing your personal experience with Obama.

For readers: I know a bit about TFB's background and can vouch for his claims that he has met the people he said he's met.

.

smile_1 said...

jeffchristie,

Are you telling us here that it is impossible to speed up a software development project? :)

The 2020 date was a hyperbole - a joke on Bush if you will, the obvious parallel is to the OBL kill (2 yrs 4 months and done under Obama who also prioritized this mission - whereas Bush stated he hardly ever gave OBL a thought, zippo after 7 yrs under Bush and also screwed up @ Tora Bora when we had OBL cornered and Bush made a monumental blunder decision of not sending our elite Rangers into to snuff the high value target ).

If you cannot figure it out yourself, I'll help you figure out where your logic is faulty on the enhanced interrogation techniques - the clue is your info link is dated and has been superseded by newer information - look at the date on your link reference then look at the date when McCain made his statement based on the private letter he received from Panetta and supporting info. from Panetta.

I have confidence in you in figuring out the above and your private letter question. If you still cannot figure it out holla back y'all.

My apologies to Honey for blowing up your comment section with the back and forth stuff - which in the end really is a waste of time. I think it is important to understand the facts of how we got to this place, and for this piece of it I think we made some headway. I think Jeff started this discussion with the idea that sub-prime was the culprit, with the 3.85% stat, I think he knows now his primary thesis has been blown to bits, and Bob Brinker is correct, it was the swaps and outsized leveraged bets in the trillions placed which were unregulated which is at the feet of Foreclosure Phil (R) who snuck this CMA provision into an omnibus spending bill which was the primary culprit.

=======

to tfb and others on this blog who are unable to back their rhetoric up with supporting facts don't expect any type of respect from anyone with more than 2 brain cells working.

smile_1 said...

Nobody Graduates from Harvard Law - Magna Cum Laude who is just average intelligence - flat out non sequitur

now head cheerleader at Yale with a C average - bet a dollar to a donut the biased view point denigrating Obama thinks this is genius LMAO 8)

Honeybee said...

Smile said: "My apologies to Honey for blowing up your comment section with the back and forth stuff - which in the end really is a waste of time. I think it is important to understand the facts of how we got to this place, and for this piece of it I think we made some headway. I think Jeff started this discussion with the idea that sub-prime was the culprit, with the 3.85% stat, I think he knows now his primary thesis has been blown to bits, and Bob Brinker is correct, it was the swaps and outsized leveraged bets in the trillions placed which were unregulated which is at the feet of Foreclosure Phil (R) who snuck this CMA provision into an omnibus spending bill which was the primary culprit."

Smile,

No need to apologize for expressing your own opinions and beliefs because I believe everyone has that right, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

I thank you for giving me the opportunity to demonstrate that I practice what I preach.

You know, even if others may not, that even though we are friends, you and I never agree on anything political. :)

I also thank you for arguing the issues with your usual courtesy.

.

jeffchristie said...

Smile said:

"Are you telling us here it is impossible to speed up a software development project?"

No but it is not that easy to do so. A great number of projects don't meet their original target date. I do remember one project in my 25 year career that did come in early. It wasn't the result of management pressure. The software designers were creative and used an out of the box approach. What magic wand did Obama use? Did he double the staff? Make them work 7 days a week? Maybe he outsourced part of the work to Israel. I have worked with Israeli programmers and the had a better record at meeting dates than Americans.

As to the issue of the financial crisis. Americans like to blame Wall Street. The way I see it they should look in the mirror.
It was a series of dominos that fell. The first domino was people stopped meeting their financial obligations by not keeping their mortgage payments up to date. What Wall Street did was pour gasoline on the fire. If these people would have been financially responsible and not took on more debt than they could afford, the derivatives that Wall Street created insuring the mortgages would never have been triggered. Sub prime mortgages and the government policy encouraging people to by homes was the recipe for this disaster. Both Clinton and Bush are responsible. Its like the disaster in Japan. If there had been no earth quake there would have been no tsunami and the nuclear power plants would probably still be working. This isn't a bad analogy. I think the US economy would have still taken a significant hit even if the banks didn't have the derivatives. Japan would have sill suffered significantly if the power plants were not nuclear.

jeffchristie said...

On the letter to McCain, I found this article by a former counter terrorism official who claims McCain publish only the portions of the letter that supported his position while omitting parts that suggested otherwise.

"Now that I’ve read the published portions of the Panetta letter that you’ve highlighted for me, I must say I am even more mystified by Sen. McCain’s essay. Particularly curious are the “hard facts” from Director Panetta that Sen. McCain chose to omit. Clearly, the Senator elected not to reveal the Director’s concession that useful information leading to bin Laden’s capture came from detainees subjected to what Director Panetta calls “enhanced interrogation techniques” (but Sen. McCain calls “torture”). This is a striking omission given that the Senator, in the course of accusing former Attorney General Mukasey of giving a “false” account, conveyed the impression that the information from detainees subjected to harsh interrogation had been uniformly “false and misleading” — as the Senator put it with respect to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (who, it turns out, did provide the CIA with al-Kuwaiti’s nickname … one of the assertions by Judge Mukasey that the Senator summarily dismissed as “false”). "


http://www.defenddemocracy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11792789&Itemid=0

Pig said...

to tfb and others on this blog who are unable to back their rhetoric up with supporting facts don't expect any type of respect from anyone with more than 2 brain cells working.

Does that apply to people that routinely use derogatory names for certain politicians, (Rummy, Bushie) rather than stick to facts?

Does that apply to people that do NOT reply to direct questions, but simply carry on with their own OPINIONS?

i.e. How was Libya connected to 911

People in glass houses....................

Just my opinion, BTW, from brain cell #1 of 2.

Honeybee said...

Jeffchristie,

I agree, and I think if Bob Brinker would be honest, he would agree that the bad loans that Clinton (and Bush) forced lending institutions to make, was the beginning of the whole meltdown.

The other issues he blames are simply "enablers" that made it hundreds of times worse.

I recall Brinker had callers who told about making loans with no money down, no job and no prospects of being able to pay them.

At the time, Brinker was disgusted about it, but STILL failed to see the handwriting on the wall. That was almost inexcusable for a money-guru with his experience.

Now he's trying to make out like there was no way he could have had a clue. It's silly.

I have some of loan calls archived, but wish I had been prescient enough to document more of them.

Here's your link, Jeff:

Misled by Senator McAin?

.

smile_1 said...

Pig,

You do know Rummy is Rumsfeld's nickname don't you. Also, find on this blog where Bushie was used except by you.

As for the Lybia question - I did not answer on purpose but was hoping someone would spot this and answer. Anyone who listened to Obama's reasons for engagement in Lybia can answer this question. I don't want to be insulting but a grade school kid listening to the news without bias could answer this question - which is why I did not - and was hoping someone would say duh we already know why... So since no one stepped up here is the answer:

The US is not going to stand by idly and watch innocent civilians get slaughtered if we can intervene with moderate to low risk thru air strikes not boots on the ground and extricate our lead role quickly for others to take.

BTW in case you are wondering, the answer would have been different if it involved US boots (troops) on the ground other than CIA spotters. Congress would have been involved with war powers instead of exec. decision.

Beyond that the question makes no sense - the inference is we only get involved in wars which involve 911. Totally absurd. The US engages when there is either a vital US interest involved or a humanitarian interests - in both instances the Commander in Chief is responsible for weighing the risks involved and evaluating the cost/benefit/risks of acting vs. not.

In Iraq Bush made a grave error based on information presented to him by Tenet et al in 2002 to prove the WMD thingy - by Bush's own words as cited/quoted in Woodwards book, Bush knew the WMD data was insufficient. Anyone with an ounce of intellectual curiosity - an important trait Obama has but apparently Bush is deficient in would have engaged Gates or another trusted close intellectual to review the data and pick it apart - the stakes were too high not to - but apparently not for Bush (death toll for US soldiers in Iraq topped 4000 (4,460) with multiple thousands wounded based on the WMD lie.) - was it worth it - debt cost probably for Iraq alone is over 1 trillion not paid for by Bush probably closer to 2 trillion if you count injured rehab loss of life etc. - we will never know if 1 or more of our soldiers who died or gravely injured in Iraq could have either created something or somebody world changing. So much for executive experience coupled with mediocre intelligence lacking intellectual curiosity and the Bush administration.

smile_1 said...

McCain's letter

why Chaney, Rummy et al Republicans grew silent about the role played by Bush's enhanced torture techniques in leading to OBL kill...

========

"I asked CIA Director Leon Panetta for the facts, and he told me the following: The trail to bin Laden did not begin with a disclosure from Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times. The first mention of Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti — the nickname of the al-Qaeda courier who ultimately led us to bin Laden — as well as a description of him as an important member of al-Qaeda, came from a detainee held in another country, who we believe was not tortured. None of the three detainees who were waterboarded provided Abu Ahmed’s real name, his whereabouts or an accurate description of his role in al-Qaeda.

In fact, the use of “enhanced interrogation techniques” on Khalid Sheik Mohammed produced false and misleading information. He specifically told his interrogators that Abu Ahmed had moved to Peshawar, got married and ceased his role as an al-Qaeda facilitator — none of which was true. According to the staff of the Senate intelligence committee, the best intelligence gained from a CIA detainee — information describing Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti’s real role in al-Qaeda and his true relationship to bin Laden — was obtained through standard, noncoercive means."

smile_1 said...

Pig,

You do know Rummy is Rumsfeld's nickname don't you. Also, find on this blog where "Bushie" was used except by you.

As for the Lybia question - I did not answer on purpose but was hoping someone would spot this and bring it up. Anyone who listened to Obama's reasons for engagement in Lybia can answer this question. I don't want to be insulting but a grade school kid could answer this question - which is why I did not - and was hoping someone would say duh we already know why... So since no one stepped up here is the answer:

The US is not going to stand by idly and watch innocent civilians get slaughtered if we can intervene with moderate to low risk thru airstrikes not boots on the ground and extricate our lead role quickly for others to take.

BTW incase you are wondering the answer would have been different if it involved US boots (troops) on the ground other than CIA spotters.

Beyond that the question makes no sense - the inference is we only get involved in wars which involve 911. Totally absurd. The US engages when there is either a vital US interest involved or a humanitarian interests - in both instances the Commander in Chief is responsible for weighing the risks involved and evaluating the cost/benefit/risks of acting vs. not.

In Iraq Bush made a grave error based on information presented to him by Tenet et al in 2002 to prove the WMD thingy - by Bush's own words as cited/quoted in Woodwards book, Bush knew the WMD data was insufficient. Anyone with an ounce of intellectual curiosity - an important trait Obama has but apparently Bush is deficient in would have engaged Gates or another trusted close intellectual to review the data and pick it apart - the stakes were too high not to - but apparently not for Bush (death toll for US soldiers in Iraq topped 4000 (4,460) with multiple thousands wounded based on the WMD lie.) - was it worth it - debt cost probably Iraq alone is over 1 trillion not paid for probably closer to 2 trillion if you count injured rehab loss of life etc. - we will never know if 1 or more of our soldiers who died there could have either created something or somebody world changing.

smile_1 said...

jeffchristie said...

What magic wand did Obama use? Did he double the staff?


==

Jeff, isn't that the definition of speed up? To prioritize and direct more resources.

====

re: subprime math you do know statistically speaking 3.85% is considered immaterial in many circles.

Your analogy does not fit because you can not take the tsunami out of the equation of the Japan meltdown which resulted from the Japan earth quake however we know without the 30:1 swap bets some estimated in the 40 to 50 trillion dollar range that the Armageddon trade which took us down to S&P 666 after the Lehman failure would not have occurred... there is a direct link from swap dereg. thnks to foreclosure Phil Gramm and his CMA snuck into an Omnibus spending bill.

Pig said...

Smile pontificates, patting himself on the back, hoping nobody will notice it and says:

You do know Rummy is Rumsfeld's nickname don't you.

You are on first name basis with him or close enough to use his nickname? I envy you.

Also, find on this blog where "Bushie" was used except by you.

I did NOT accuse YOU of that, did I? Are you sure you would like to place a bet that the word "bushie" was NEVER used on this blog, other than by me?

I don't want to be insulting but a grade school kid could answer this question - which is why I did not

Why? Did you have trouble graduating from grade school? I wish I was as smart as you so that I could discuss all this political opinion stuff and pretend that I knew everything, as you do.

Did you take extra night courses or were you just born this smart? Those of us with one or two brain cells might like to follow your example, and become equally important.

The US is not going to stand by idly and watch innocent civilians get slaughtered

OOPS! Do you really want to make that ridiculous statement in print, and stand behind it without some metal plate?

Geane452 said...

I just want to commend Smile for bringing a refreshing reality to this board without the usual name calling and insulting remarks.

His factual, logical and well-supported comments are honestly quite a change from the usual political rhetoric we often see here.

Thanks Smile!

Pig said...

truthsucker says:

I just want to commend Smile for bringing a refreshing reality to this board without the usual name calling and insulting remarks.

I agree with you and welcome smiles' comments and opinions. I would like to see some of his facts, rather than opinions.

Do you have one or 2 brain cells, as smile posted/asked? And, do you know many people that had trouble graduating from grammar school so they don't answer questions over here?

That was pretty classy, doncha think?

Geane452 said...

Pig begins his insulting post with

"truthsucker says:

Just a quick note to let you know I didn't miss your post.

I will ignore all posts from you henceforth.

Your exactly the insulting poster I was talking about and I can't be bothered responding to your crap.

Pig said...

I will ignore all posts from you henceforth.

I doubt it. You never could, and never will be able to go "head to head" with me, which is why you have so many dopey ID's. I win EACH and EVERY time.

"Your" exactly...

I love it....................and your (sic) welcome!

Pig said...

Pig begins his insulting post with

BTW, are you going to answer the last question, or did you have trouble graduating from grammar school too? (as descibed by your hero, smile) Here it is again, in case you want to look a little less silly and less antagonistic today:

Do you have one or 2 brain cells, as smile posted/asked? And, do you know many people that had trouble graduating from grammar school so they don't answer questions over here?

That was pretty classy, doncha think?

Geane452 said...

Get lost Pig Don't bother me.

Pig said...

Do you have one or 2 brain cells, as smile posted/asked? And, do you know many people that had trouble graduating from grammar school so they don't answer questions over here?

That was pretty classy, doncha think?


Why won't you answer a simple question or two?

Doesn't it make you smile?

Geane452 said...

FUP

Pig said...

Truthseeker, who says sHE despises filth and insults, and is having some real trouble ignoring me, pukes out some more filth, by screechingFUP

OH MY GOODNESS. How nasty and disgusting.

Did I just WIN again, against a total LOOSER like you.

Do you sell a newsleter by any chance under your own name, or are you just totally worthless?

jeffchristie said...

Pig

Here is a recent assessment of how we are doing in Libya. It was given by someone who worked in that Bush administration.

"The mightiest military alliance in history is only 11 weeks into an operation against a poorly armed regime in a sparsely populated country, yet many allies are beginning to run short of munitions, requiring the U.S., once more, to make up the difference."

Do you agree with this?

jeffchristie said...

Smile blames Bush for the deficits incurred after Obama took office. Bob Brinker addressed this with a caller to Moneytalk.

NATIONAL DEBT: A caller asked Brinker what is the total national debt, then asked: "Did Obama inherit a $1.3 trillion deficit from Bush, or did the Republicans, under Bush, leave approximately a $450 billion debt?

Brinker replied: "I think what we have to do there is look at calendar year numbers....the forward numbers are estimates. The backward numbers we have, and I think we have to let the numbers speak for themselves in order to make a judgment on this -- take the politics out of it. In terms of the deficit.....for 2009, the estimated deficit looks like about 2 trillion one hundred billion dollars.....fiscal year ending September.....

.....Now in terms of who is responsible for that: It was a team effort. The retired president would be responsible for October, November, December and the first three weeks of January, and then the rest would go to the current occupant of the White House for the rest of the fiscal year through the 30th of September. So we'll call that a team effort. Looks like about 2.1 trillion dollars for the fiscal year. Let me be more specific. That is the amount of debt that will be sold, but that includes rollovers. Let's just talk deficit numbers. Deficit $1.84 trillion, that's current estimate........

.....Now here's the bad news.....For the following fiscal year, the estimate one and a quarter trillion additional, so for the 2 years, it's over $3 trillion.

Pig said...

Jeff asks:

Do you agree with this?

Certainly. It is true and factual, and not based on opinion.

smile_1 said...

Truthseeker said...

I just want to commend Smile for bringing a refreshing reality to this board without the usual name calling and insulting remarks.

His factual, logical and well-supported comments are honestly quite a change from the usual political rhetoric we often see here.

Thanks Smile!

June 11, 2011 1:48 PM


________

Thank You for your post Truthseeker. It is much appreciated. I like your moniker. psst - don't tell pig he might think I just insulted you :)

I knew if I waited long enough I would find signs of reasonable thought here besides Honey of course.

As you know the problem with the other side (bonus point if you can figure out why they refer to themselves as right when they are usually so wrong) is they never get the facts right even when you spoon feed them - stuck on stupid is too kind for many of 'em. I'm no genius but when someone calls Bush a liar on the WMD thingy and then proves it with Bush's own words and they still deny it - what is that but SOS - you got it stuck.

When someone says subprime was a necessary component yes but a fractional at best contributor to the Armageddon trade, puts the math out on 50% default on 1 trillion in subprime comp'd to the entire mortgage market at 3.85% then provides factual references to the origin by foreclosure Phil legislation which enabled trillions in unregulated leveraged bets on cdo's and unreserved swaps and shows this is the real culprit that brought down Lehman, Bear, AIG etc., but they insist on listening to idiots like Rush, Hannity, and worse Palin who's arguments are so lame and fictional yet the sheep just gobble it up like candy - what can you say other than they are SOS - that's right stuck :)

Don't give a 2nd thought to the dribble pig is putting out - 2 brain cells and up know it's all rhetoric somebody spoon fed him, he can't even remember what he posted apparently. You insulted Rummy by calling him by his nickname, oops that won't work everyone calls him Rummy, let's try this um - you called him by his first name - hey no that won't work - ah wait let me see if Rush or Hannity discuss this so I can maybe not look like I have less than 2 brain cells working - nope that won't work - ah forget it he's right SOS. His mind is so bent on name calling rather than fact presenting, and he congratulates himself on winning the argument - wow :) now that is SOS. At least Jeff is trying to support his position with facts - but not pig - he is above it all - smarter than all of us in his own mind.

Let's see if he comes back with a few name calls or attempts at insults but no facts... too bad a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Fun stuff guys but I'm outie - gotta get some real work done. Honey thanks again for posting my comments, I hope it made some with rational thought here see no matter how flat you make that pancake there is always two sides. Appreciate your forum and your upholding free speech.

The win goes to those with the facts on their side - I must say modestly of course - that is usually me. 8)

birdbrain said...

This message is typed through teary eyes as, being called away for the evening, I will not be the 100th commenter to this post, for which I'm sure Honey has a fabulous prize to award that lucky participant.

Don't tell me, let me guess.

A lunch date with Warren Buffett and Bob Brinker Sr, or a three night vacation in a foreclosed Lake Las Vegas condo, or a....

Aw, who cares? It won't be me.

Honeybee said...

Birdbrain,

The 100th post prize has always been a lunch with me at Gilda's on the Santa Cruz Wharf -- my treat.

I think the prize has been awarded a couple of times, but so far, no one has collected. I think that is because the winners live on the other side of the country from me. I know that one does, and that is Mr. Pig. :)

Now here's the deal, if anyone is willing to actually collect the prize, I will rig the 100th post for them. ROFLOL!!

.

Pig said...

Let's see if he comes back with a few name calls or attempts at insults but no facts... too bad a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

And be as pathetic as the person that typed this hilarious, self-aggrandizing post? Not a chance.

I hate to see another LOSER skip town, but we are used to it over here. Losers are so much fun to play with.

BTW, was Obama a scholar in all 57 states, and does his teleprompter speak Austrian?

(((ROAR)))

NOONE CAN MAKE THIS CRAP UP!

Goodbye..............and feel welcome to return with your bogus ID's and talk to yourself some more.

Pig said...

OPPS!, I forgot.

I'm impressed with the way you (smile et al) ran away before answering questions about your ridiculous statement about "Obama can't stand by and watch innocent people get killed".

That sound soooo nice and humane.............and so full of it. I don't blame you for giving up and hiding. Nor did you answer the the "bushie" question.

At least one of us has a memory.......

Now for my prediction.............I predict truthseeker will also disappear.

I'm shocked I tell you........just shocked.

Geane452 said...

"His mind is so bent on name calling rather than fact presenting, and he congratulates himself on winning the argument - wow :) now that is SOS....Let's see if he comes back with a few name calls or attempts at insults but no facts... too bad a mind is a terrible thing to waste."

Yep Smile, that's exactly what he is doing and always has done.

I can't remember a pig post that was not laced with attacks and insults.

Pig said...

Scroll up to see this gem of logic and congeniality:

Blogger Truthseeker said...

FUP

smile_1 said...

as usual...

:)

smile_1 said...

smile said...

as usual...


________________

smile wins.

Next time wifey and I are in SC we would be glad to join you at Gilda's on the Santa Cruz Wharf :)

BTW, very impressive performance by Bachmann last night - of course my expectations were so low that even Palin could have exceeded. Just kidding Bachmann really showed she deserved to be on that stage last night with the other mental midgets :). Pawlenty proved to be a gutless wonder on his Obamni Care comment. Romney came off as being credible - some would add in, b4, take off the e, add a y and add boring. What they all have in common is the same answers that got us into the 1.3 Trillion hole left for Obama to remedy. Even those with less than 2 working brain cells should be able to see that... I think east coast pigs make that category.

Honeybee said...

And the big winner for the hundredth post is Ta-da! Smile!

Okay, Smiley (and "wifey") next time you are going to be in Santa Cruz, send me an email and we will make plans to have lunch at Gilda's on the Wharf.

.

smile_1 said...

That's a big 10-4 good buddy.

http://gildas-restaurant.com/

It might be a while - last time I was in the state was 1981 :)

I'll spring for drinks desert and generous tip.

Pig said...

"As usual" a somebody that is really a nobody, but pretends to know everything, still has NOT answered any direct questions since he only knows what is fed to him at Politico and Huff-N-puff.

When one's miniscule, non-functioning brain is wired to be stuck on stupid, but that same failure enjoys words of wisdom, such as FUP, one has to worry about retardation, especially in light of voting for obama, another similar dismal failure.

Anyway, why is obama tolerating the murder and suffering of civilians in parts of the world, other than Libya, that was only going take days, and surely is over by now.

smile_1 said...

pig,

I don't normally suffer fools so I'm going to have to give you a couple of tests to see if in fact you are a fool:

1) take your 1st fool test here

if you passed this test in two seconds or less go on to step 2, if it took you longer than 2 seconds go to your pig pen and eat your slop.

2) solve this budget task and post your result.

Pig said...

Yo, Tardo, tell me sumptin. Why the hell don't you ever answer easy DIRECT questions? Is it because your are as ignorant as obama, or are you even more stupid? (hard to imagine)

Why do you and obama want Boeing to go to Mexico or Canada, instead of SC? Can't obama pick one of our 57 states?

Nextly, why do you keep coming back to a Brinker thread to discuss your pitiful opinion of assbackwards politics?

Have you been laughed offa the political forums? I can understand why with your pathetic excuses and name calling instead of presenting facts and logic.

Didja notice how everybody else here (other than gentleman Jeff) totally ignored your dopey ass? We've seen your type before, and guess what? They're all gone.

Loosers like you always leave.

smile_1 said...

pig,

be honest how long were you SOS... 5 minutes and still loading LMAO

i've chewed idiots like you up and spit 'em out b4 breakfast - your problem - ya got no facts on your side - you know what that means don't you slop brain? - it means you lose every time.

p.s. substitute hit for lop - that's what you eat and that's what you have for brains...

2 seconds or more per brain cell - still loading wait for it LMAO

where's pig's budget solution... give him time he had to go eat slop first... since he failed the fool test maybe he'll get to that one later ROTFL@U

Pig said...

C'mon LOSER, answer some of the easy questions instead of showing how stupid people repeat themselves.

Forward the questions to Politico, or that ex-sports guy that was booted offa MSNBC for being ugly AND stupid.and tell them that you need help at a Bob Brinker finance thread because you are overmatched AGAIN in politics.

I get a big kick outta your admitting (and you don't even realize it) how long it took you to figure out the dumb liberal puzzles. Did you make it into menstrua with your grade?

Aren't mirrors wonderful? Are you starting to really dislike me yet, or has that happened already? Sleep on it, and in the morning you might figure it out. (50/50 chance)

smile_1 said...

ROTFL@U

Pig said...

When you are done rolling around, scratching that tingle up your leg, try to answer one or two simple direct questions form the past two weeks.

You are looking quite stupid right now, which is why everyone is still ignoring you.

Losers get ignored over here.

Hey, why not try a different ID?

OPPS, I forgot, you tried that dumb idea already.

Can you make that freak of nature ID come back and stick up for you some more, and play "good cop/bad cop" again? That was hilarious.

Anonymous said...

OH THANK YOU, Smile for posting your superb thoughts here and putting that filthy pig in his place, and blowing off that miscreant Jeff.

You are the smartest person here, and the best looking too. Please post more facts and opinions to educate these morons.

Thanks, and remember that we're counting on you.

p.s. Please blame a few more things on Bush.

jeffchristie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Anon

That filthy Pig and his sidekick Jesus Christie have been banned from various internet sites. They are trouble makers. Smile is obviously smarter than both of them. Christie only lasted six months in college and the Pig barely made it through high school. I hear they are member of the tea party. Real misfits.

Queenofquibble